NY salary guide

New York Metro

Salary Guide
Who Makes How Much
An impertinent look at other people's paychecks.


Salary envy and its more loathsome twin, salary smugness, are the yin and yang of New York life, the engine that drives the city. But face it: Unless you’re actually steaming open the mail, most of what you think you know about what your neighbor makes is little more than fantasy. That’s where we come in. We’ve compiled a voluminous and eccentric list of hundreds of New Yorkers’ salaries, from the hedge-funder who pulled down more than a billion last year to the Chinese-food deliveryman making four figures (plus tips). There’s Calvin Klein and a guy who sells knockoffs on the street, a cantor and an imam, a first-year assistant district attorney and Sam Waterston, an honorary veteran of the D.A.’s office.

The first such list published in this magazine, in 1972, offers a glimpse into the city’s misty, pre-Morgenthau past; Bob makes his first appearance on the 1975 list, and he is the only person who holds the same title now as he did then. Another landmark who has stood the test of time even longer than Morgie: Hugh Hefner, the sole listee from 1972 to recur in this issue. Back then, Hef banked $303,847 wearing the hats of chairman, president, editor, and—whew!—publisher of Playboy Enterprises. These days, he takes in $983,000 merely for his editor-in-chief duties. No one in 1972 even approached seven figures; the highest figure on the list was the $425,160 taken home by Meshulan Riklis, chairman and president of Rapid-American Corp. and ex-husband of Pia Zadora.

Even in 2005, it’s still considered bad manners in most circles to volunteer one’s salary. So putting the list together was a challenge. One local-TV weatherman summed up many opinions when he said, “Oy vey, oy vey, oy vey, oy vey! You know what four oy veys means? It means we don’t talk about that kind of thing, and I’m not going to tell you. It’s personal.” And he was right, of course, though that didn’t stop us. Corporate proxy statements, printed news reports (we are most heavily indebted to Forbes and to Institutional Investor’s Alpha magazine), city payrolls, nonprofits’ tax-return filings—those were easy. And sometimes asking people straight-up worked. Donald Trump Jr., for one, was happy to declare his income (like father, like son), and after some discussion, we decided to take his word for it. One squeamish real-estate broker gave her name and then panicked, demanding in a series of phone calls of escalating hysteria that we remove her last name. See Jennifer’s shame (minus, alas, her surname).

Some of the numbers, inevitably, are guesses. But they’re educated guesses, at least, based on multiple industry sources. Many artists and entertainers, for instance, were unenthusiastic about commenting on their earnings (as were their agents). In such cases, we relied on the informed speculation of insiders—though Andy Warhol’s earnings, to cite just one example, are controlled by the nonprofit Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts and are correct to the dollar. Some sources took our questions as an opportunity for sniping; explaining Maggie Gyllenhaal’s per-movie price, one studio executive kindly offered, “She’s a no-one.”

None of the figures includes perks—not a banker’s private jet, a university president’s housing, or an editor’s Town Car. This is about cash. Note that some of the CEO salaries may seem strange: They reflect salaries, bonuses, and exercised stock options only—so Time Warner CEO Richard Parsons is listed as earning $23.5 million, of which about $9 million represent options that he cashed out. All figures are the most recent available, and there’s a chance, of course, that some numbers have moved up or down since they were reported. We won’t pretend that this list will make you sleep any better—but at least you’ll know what to request next time you’re due for a raise.

Business
Edward Lampert
$1.02 billion
Manager, ESL Investments hedge fund

James Simons
$670 million
Manager, Renaissance Technologies Corp. hedge fund

Bruce Kovner
$550 million
Manager, Caxton Associates hedge fund

Richard Fuld
$35,257,099
Chairman and CEO, Lehman Brothers

E. Stanley O’Neal
$32,134,673
Chairman, CEO, and president, Merrill Lynch

Wire Image)

Henry Paulson Jr.
$29,789,359
Chairman and CEO, Goldman Sachs

Sanford Weill
$29,121,679
Chairman, Citigroup

William Harrison Jr.
$15,719,320
Chairman and CEO, JPMorgan Chase

James Dimon
$7,895,446
President and COO, JPMorgan Chase

Kenneth Chenault
$19,820,599
Chairman and CEO, American Express

Henry McKinnell
$17,188,437
Chairman and CEO, Pfizer

H. Edward Hanway
$13.3 million
Chairman, CEO, and president, Cigna

John D. Wren
$13,270,472
CEO and president, Omnicom Group advertising

James Dolan
$9.5 million
Chairman, CEO, and president, Cablevision

Edgar Bronfman Jr.
$6.3 million
CEO, Warner Music Group

David Neeleman
$286,971
Chairman and CEO, JetBlue Airways

John Thain
$4 million
CEO, New York Stock Exchange

Chelsea Clinton
$120,000
Consultant, McKinsey & Co.

Travis Harris
$3,120
Shoe-shiner, Wall Street ($20 a day, three days a week)

Chris (last name withheld)
$24,000
Panhandler, Bleecker and Broadway

Juanita Garcia
$3 million
2005 New York State lottery winner

Law
Robert Morgenthau
$150,000
District attorney, Manhattan

Jeannine Pirro
$136,700
District attorney, Westchester

Eric Rosen
$50,000
First-year assistant district attorney, Manhattan

Shannon Stallings
$45,922
First-year public defender, Legal Aid Society

Laura Held
$126,072
Parking-violation judge

Judy Sheindlin
$30 million
Television judge

H. Rodgin Cohen
$4 million
Chairman, Sullivan & Cromwell

Josh Dubin
$512,500
Jury consultant and trial strategist

William Joshua Brant
$125,000
First-year associate, Weil, Gotshal & Manges

Television
Dick Wolf
$200 million
Executive producer, Law & Order, Law & Order: SVU, Law & Order: Criminal Intent (includes syndication)

Sam Waterston
$2.5 million
Actor, Law & Order

David Chase
$20 million
Creator, The Sopranos

James Gandolfini
$10 million
Actor, The Sopranos

David Letterman
$31 million
Host, The Late Show With David Letterman

Jon Stewart
$1.5 million
Host, The Daily Show

Dave Chappelle
$0
Absent Comedian, Chappelle’s Show
($50 million contract for two years, but no episodes yet delivered)

Tina Fey
$1.5 million
Performer and head writer, Saturday Night Live

Regis Philbin
$20 million
Host, Live With Regis and Kelly

Kelly Ripa
$7 million
Host, Live With Regis and Kelly

Charlie Gibson,
$7 million
Co-anchor, Good Morning America

Brian Williams,
$4 million
Anchor, NBC Nightly News

Anderson Cooper
$2 million
Host, Anderson Cooper 360

Chuck Scarborough
$3 million
Anchor, WNBC news

Sue Simmons
$2.5 million
Anchor, WNBC news

Sam Champion
$1.5 million
Weatherman, WABC

Pat Kiernan
$200,000
Anchor, NY1

Roger Ailes,
$7.1 million
Chairman, Fox News Channel

Andrew Heyward
$1.5 million
President, CBS News

Movies
Harvey and Bob Weinstein
$50 million each
Co-chairmen, Miramax Films
(2004–5 bonuses and buyout from Disney split)

Robert De Niro
$20 million
Actor, Meet the Fockers

Leonardo DiCaprio
$20 million
Actor, The Aviator

Nicole Kidman
$15 million
Actress, The Interpreter

Kirsten Dunst
$8 million
Actress, Elizabethtown

Meryl Streep
$5 million
Actress, The Devil Wears Prada

Lindsay Lohan
$3.5 million
Actress, Herbie: Fully Loaded
($7.5 million for the upcoming Just My Luck)

Wire Image; Tim Whitby
Wire Image)

Uma Thurman
$3 million
Actress, Be Cool

Ethan Hawke
$3 million
Actor, Assault on Precinct 13

Jake Gyllenhaal
$3 million
Actor, Jarhead

Maggie Gyllenhaal
$500,000
Actress, upcoming untitled Oliver Stone 9/11 film

Rosario Dawson
$1 million
Actress, Rent

Peter Sarsgaard
$750,000
Actor, Flight Plan

Sarah Jessica Parker
$38 million
Gap spokeswoman
(plus $1 million for the upcoming Failure to Launch)

Karen Cooper
$182,592
Director and president, Film Forum

Johan Roldan
$10,200
Ticket collector, City Cinemas Village East

David Schmidt
$8,736
Kim’s Video clerk
(28 hours per week at $6 per hour)

Broadway
Billy Crystal
$10 million
Monologuist, 700 Sundays

Matthew Broderick and Nathan Lane
$5.2 million each
Actors, The Odd Couple
($100,000 per week)

Julia Roberts
$1,820,000
Actress, Three Days of Rain
($35,000 per week)

Rosie O’Donnell
$520,000
Actress, Fiddler on the Roof
($10,000 per week)

John Patrick Shanley
$2.6 million
Playwright, Doubt
(10 percent of weekly gross of $500,000)

Sydney Davolos
$100,000
General manager, Roundabout Theatre

Art
Glenn Lowry
$617,323
Director, the Museum of Modern Art

Philippe de Montebello
$552,078
Director and CEO, the Metropolitan Museum of Art

Aristotle Stathatos
$21,159
Security guard, the Metropolitan Museum of Art

William Ruprecht
$2 million
Director, Sotheby’s

Steven Kasher
$300,000
Chelsea gallery owner

Larry Gagosian
$30 million
Owner, Gagosian Gallery

Jasper Johns
$20 million
Painter

Jeff Koons
$15 million
Conceptual artist

John Currin
$3 million
Painter

Cindy Sherman
$1 million
Photographer

Andy Warhol
$16,226,741
Deceased artist

Music
50 Cent
$50 million
Rapper, hyphenate

Diddy
$36 million
Rapper, superhyphenate

The Strokes
$835,000
Rockers, Room on Fire (570,000 copies sold at roughly
$1.50 per album)

Wynton Marsalis
$796,012
Artistic director, Jazz at Lincoln Center

John Lennon
$21 million
Deceased singer-songwriter

Frank Sinatra
$5 million
Deceased singer-songwriter

Wire Image)

Mark Ronson
$400,000
D.J.

Tom Stewart
$20,000
Tower Records clerk

Lorin Maazel
$1,909,155
Conductor, New York Philharmonic

Joseph Volpe
$713,000
General manager, Metropolitan Opera

Renée Fleming
$135,000
Mezzo-soprano, Metropolitan Opera
($15,000 per performance)

George M.
$16,800
Street musician, Astor Place subway station

Books
Malcolm Gladwell
$1.5 million
Author, Blink
(advance, plus $250,000 New Yorker salary and $30,000 per speaking engagement)

Jonathan Safran Foer
$1 million
Author, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close
(advance, plus $12,500 per speaking engagement)

Judith Regan
$1 million
President and publisher, Regan Books

Sonny Mehta
$750,000
Chairman and editor-in-chief, Alfred A. Knopf Publishing Group

Ann Godoff
$400,000
President and publisher, the Penguin Press

Sam Tanenhaus
$180,000
Editor, The New York Times Book Review

Stephen Riggio
$4,813,567
CEO and vice-chairman, Barnes & Noble

Lisa Jong
$12,896
Clerk, Barnes & Noble
(32 hours a week at $7.75 per hour)

Media
Barry Diller
$156,168,000
Chairman and CEO, IAC/InterActiveCorp

Richard Parsons
$23,557,165
Chairman and CEO, Time Warner, Inc.

Robert Iger
$12 million
CEO, Walt Disney Corporation

Sumner Redstone
$56 million
Chairman and CEO, Viacom

Les Moonves
$52 million
Co-president and co-COO, Viacom

Tom Freston
$52 million
Co-president and co-COO, Viacom

Bob Wright
$19.7 million
Vice-chairman of GE, chairman and CEO of NBC Universal

Martha Stewart
$3,565,969
Founder, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia

Martha Stewart
$9.6 million
TV Star
($1.6 million for The Apprentice, $8 million for Martha)

Susan Lyne
$4,714,469
CEO and president, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia

Arthur Sulzberger Jr.
$1.92 million
Chairman and publisher, the New York Times Co.

Peter Kann
$2.3 million
Chairman and CEO, Dow Jones

Karen Elliott House
$877,000
Publisher, the Wall Street Journal

Bill Keller
$650,000
Executive editor, the New York Times

Col Allan
$600,000
Editor, New York Post

Richard Johnson
$300,000
“Page Six” gossip columnist

Thomas Friedman
$300,000
Columnist, the New York Times
(plus $40,000 per speaking engagement)

Maria Schneider
$17,500
Associate Editor, The Onion

Will Shortz
$90,000
Crossword editor, the New York Times

Jim Romenesko
$169,187
Blogger, the Poynter Institute

Jessica Coen
$30,000
Blogger, Gawker.com

Parakash Patel
$14,400
Newsstand operator, 50th Street and Third Avenue

Hugh Hefner
$983,000
Founder and editor-in-chief, Playboy Enterprises

Christie Hefner
$1.44 million
Chairman and CEO, Playboy Enterprises

David Pecker
$3.15 million
CEO and president, American Media

Norm Pearlstine
$2 million
Editor-in-chief, Time Inc.

Anna Wintour
$2 million
Editor, Vogue

Sylvana Soto-Ward
$40,000
Assistant to Anna Wintour

Bonnie Fuller
$1,574,851
Editorial director, American Media

Janice Min
$1.2 million
Editor, Us Weekly

James Kelly
$1.1 million
Managing editor, Time

Tom Wallace
$1 million
Editorial director, Condé Nast

David Remnick
$1 million
Editor, The New Yorker

Dance
Peter Martins
$619,000
Artistic director, New York City Ballet

AP; Beatriz Schiller
Time Life Pictures/Getty Images)

Angel Corella and Julie Kent
$171,000 each
Principal dancers, American Ballet Theatre

Magdalena Piekarz
$48,000
Teacher, Arthur Murray Dance Studios

Sports
Paul Tagliabue
$8 million
Commissioner, National Football League

Don Garber
$1.25 Million
Commissioner, Major League Soccer

Wire Image)

Larry Brown
$10 million
Head coach, New York Knicks

Isiah Thomas
$6.7 million
General manager, New York Knicks

Brian Cashman
$1 million
General manager, New York Yankees

Omar Minaya
$700,000
General manager, New York Mets

Joe Torre
$6.4 million
Manager, Yankees

Willie Randolph
$630,000
Manager, Mets

Tom Coughlin
$2.75 million
Head coach, New York Giants

Herman Edwards
$2 million
Head coach, New York Jets

Eli Manning
$7.5 million
Quarterback, Giants

Chad Pennington
$9.1 million
Quarterback, Jets

Adrian Awasom
$230,000
Rookie defensive end, Giants

Alex Rodriguez
$25.2 million
Third baseman, Yankees

Pedro Martinez
$13.25 million
Pitcher, Mets

Steve Crampton
$9,900
Pitcher, Newark Bears
($450 per week for 22 weeks, plus $18 per diem on road trips)

Stephon Marbury
$17.5 million
Point guard, Knicks

Jason Kidd
$17.3 million
Point guard, New Jersey Nets

Trevor Ariza
$398,762
Final 2004 draft pick, Knicks

Becky Hammon
$89,000
All-Star guard, New York Liberty

Norm Roberts
$300,000
Head basketball coach, St. John’s

Patrick Magnan
$7,800
Head basketball coach, defending Manhattan champions Frederick Douglass Academy (in addition to his teacher’s salary)

Marv Albert
$750,000
TV play-by-play announcer, Nets

Mike and the Mad Dog
$2.7 million
Talk-radio hosts, WFAN
($1.4 million for Mike, $1.3 million for the Mad Dog)

Government
Gregory Burke
$18,444
Private first class, United States Army, stationed in Iraq
(includes $130 monthly hazardous-duty fee)

John Wright
$45,625
National Guardsman, Penn Station

Wire Image)

Kofi Annan
$341,094
Secretary-general, United Nations

Hillary Clinton
$162,100
United States senator

Charles Rangel
$162,100
United States congressman

George Pataki
$179,000
Governor

Eliot Spitzer
$151,500
State attorney general

Sheldon Silver
$121,000
State Assembly speaker

Joseph Bruno
$120,500
State Senate majority leader

Michael Bloomberg
$1
Mayor
(official mayor’s salary: $195,000)

Peter Madonia
$162,800
Mayor’s chief of staff

Kevin Sheekey
$270,842
Bloomberg reelection campaign manager

Cristyne Nicholas
$238,981
CEO and president, NYC & Company tourism bureau

John Doherty
$162,800
Commissioner, Sanitation Department

Lori Lyons
$48,996
Garbagewoman

Police and Fire
Thomas E. Nobles Jr.
$41,331
Postal carrier

Ray Kelly
$162,800
Police commissioner

Nicholas Scoppetta
$162,800
Fire commissioner

Charles Hirsch
$160,223
City chief medical examiner

Edwin Young
$149,766
NYPD anti-graffiti coordinator

Anthony Napolitano
$36,878
Rookie police officer

Mark Mershon
$130,000
Assistant director in charge of New York field office, FBI

John Coghlan
$60,000
Private detective

Twenty
Free walks, food, housing
Fire dog, Ladder Co. 20

Transportation
Glen O’Sullivan
$46,883
Subway conductor

Annette Sutton-Epps
$46,363
Subway station agent

Nzue Kohen
$37,000
Yellow-cab driver

Volkan Demir
$40,000
Pedicab driver

Gerard Deliotte
$20,800
Messenger

Santiago Segovia
$11,440
Parking-garage attendant

Personal Services
Keuyoung Lee
$150,000
Owner, 181 Corner Cleaners

Jason Onserud
$112,000
Personal trainer

Guy Ballirano
$75,000
Technician, Con Ed

Maria Capales
$50,000
Hairstylist

Elvin Urena
$26,085
Barber

Irene Nahon
$30,000
Manicurist

Natasha Sealy
$30,000
Nanny (plus lunch)

Christine Lanotte
$20,000
Dog walker, Petaholics

Tony Ristick
$5,217
Psychic, Celine Astrology

Flower
$150,000
Cocaine dealer, Lower East Side (
$275 per one-eighth ounce)







Getty Images)

Education
John Sexton
$740,504
President, New York University

Lee Bollinger
$611,000
President, Columbia University

Joseph Polisi
$484,706
President, the Juilliard School

Bob Kerrey
$340,000
President, the New School

Jeffrey Sachs
$300,000
Economics professor, Columbia University

Adam H. Becker
$60,000
Assistant professor, classics and religion, NYU

Wol-san Liem
$19,000
Teaching assistant, NYU

Joel Klein
$250,000
Chancellor, New York City Schools

Randi Weingarten
$223,656
President, United Federation of Teachers

Ellen Stein
$250,000
Head of school, Dalton

Stanley Teitel
$120,000
Principal, Stuyvesant High School

Karina Costantino
$116,673
Principal, P.S. 22 in Staten Island

Barbara Lancaster
$78,075
First-grade teacher, Ethical Culture Fieldston School

Christina Annunziata
$44,000
First-grade teacher, Bronx public school

Stephen Williams
$46,000
Custodian engineer, Park East High School

Jonathan Arak
$120,000
SAT tutor, Princeton Review

Health
Herbert Pardes
$2,327,655
CEO and president, New York Presbyterian Hospital

Harold Varmus
$1,693,710
CEO, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, Memorial Hospital

David Campbell
$1,254,952
CEO and president, St. Vincent’s Catholic Medical Centers

Kenneth Davis
$617,016
CEO, Mount Sinai Hospital

Steven J. Corwin
$951,021
Cardiologist/chief medical officer, Columbia Presbyterian Hospital

Howard Beaton
$549,989
Chief of surgery, NYU Downtown Hospital

Frank Manning
$503,844
Chief of OB/GYN, NYU Downtown Hospital

Scott Newman
$500,000
Plastic surgeon

Raymond Wong
$388,948
Assistant attending physician, NYU Downtown Hospital

Leena Lakhkar
$350,000
Dentist

Udomporn Ratanaphaledee
$16,640
Flower-shop cashier, Cornell Hospital

Religion
Edward Egan
$18,000
Cardinal, Archdiocese of New York

Rev. Kevin Madigan
$18,200
Catholic priest

Sister Marie of the Precious Blood
$0
Cloistered nun

Rabbi Joseph H. Gelberman
$50,000
Rabbi, All Faith Seminary (includes income from books, lectures, and weddings)

Judith Steel
$14,000
Cantor, the New Synagogue
($1,500 salary, $12,500 for weddings)

Imam Omar Abu-Namous
$4,200
Head of the Islamic Cultural Center of New York

Nonprofit
Sol Adler
$319,319
President, 92nd Street Y

Richard Haass
$275,000
President, Council on Foreign Relations

Richard Lattis
$234,777
General director, Wildlife Conservation Society (oversees city zoos)

Joan Malin
$187,000
CEO and president, Planned Parenthood of New York City

Ana Oliveira
$168,920
Executive director, Gay Men’s Health Crisis

Mary Brosnahan Sullivan
$152,893
Executive director, Coalition for the Homeless

Lt. Col. Nestor Nuesch
$22,000
Divisional commander, Salvation Army of Greater New York

Wire Image)

Real Estate
Donald Trump
$1,947,853
Chairman and CEO, Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts, Inc.

Donald Trump
$1.6 million
TV star, The Apprentice

Donald Trump Jr.
$500,000
Vice-president of acquisitions and development, Trump Organization

Mort Zuckerman
$21,597,641
Chairman, Boston Properties, Inc.

Dolly Lenz
$6.95 million
Super-broker, Prudential Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Jennifer R.
$350,000
(last name withheld) First-year broker

Hector Norat
$42,196
Superintendent, 209 W. 97th St.

Jose Felipe Gonzalez
$37,317
Doorman, 455 Central Park W.

Mohammed Hamid
$16,000
Handyman

David J. Douglas
$90,000
Contractor

Ramon Torres
$45,428
Window washer

Herman Jiminez
$40,000
Exterminator

Tommy Hilfiger
$22.4 million
Honorary chairman, Tommy Hilfiger, Inc.

Fashion
Calvin Klein
$22.2 million
Consulting creative director, Phillips Van Heusen Corp.

Russell Simmons
$119 million
Founder, Phat Farm (from the sale of Phat Farm alone)

Kimora Lee Simmons
$17 million
Creative director, Baby Phat

Kenneth Cole
$2.25 million
Chairman and CEO, Kenneth Cole Productions

Steve Madden
$700,000
Creative and design chief, Steve Madden Ltd.

Gisele Bündchen
$15.2 million
Supermodel

Dylan Erickson
$2,000
Male model (started modeling four months ago)

R. Brad Martin
$2.12 million
Chairman and CEO, Saks, Inc.

Howard Socol
$2.06 million
Chairman, CEO, and president, Barneys New York, Inc.

Michael J. Kowalski
$919,831
Chairman and CEO, Tiffany & Co.

Robert Cole
$40,000
Assistant manager, Banana Republic

Eric Miranda
$22,000
Sales clerk, Gap

Ricardo Fondeur
$35,000
Fragrance sales associate and sprayer, Macy’s

Masae Sasaki
$26,000
Sales associate, Tutu boutique, Nolita

Nivia Nogues
$15,652
Sales assistant, Payless Shoe Source

Nate P.
$31,600
Knockoff-handbag street vendor

Food
Jean-Georges Vongerichten
$6 million
Chef, restaurateur, author

Daniel Boulud
$4 million
Chef, restaurateur, author

Mario Batali
$2 million
Chef, restaurateur, author, Food Network star

Joey Repice
$44,200
Sommelier, Pure Food and Wine

Agim Seferi
$62,500
Wait captain, Café Gray

Bucho Suarez
$37,500
Short-order cook, Joe Jr. diner

Eva Ferka
$30,000
Reservationist, Alto

Travis Toy
$20,800
Line coordinator, Whole Foods Union Square

Jay Yaun
$19,200
Deli clerk, Apple Tree Market

Alex Aguinaga
$19,200
Deliveryman, FreshDirect

Eddie Santi
$17,888
Pizza server, Famous Famiglia Pizzeria

Jamal Khandaker
$11,200
Hot-dog and pretzel vendor, Broadway and Warren Street

Amirul Islam
$9,100
Fruit vendor, Broadway and Warren Street

Mike Kim
$5,200
Chinese deliveryman, Wang’s Restaurant (not including tips)

Edited by Kate Pickert.
Reported by Jessica Bennett, Mary Burke, Katie Charles, Renee DeFranco, Will Doig, Daniel Grushkin, Nathanael Johnson, Stirling Kelso, Yael Kohen, Ben Mathis-Lilley, Rebecca Milzoff, Suzanne Mozes, Janelle Nanos, Denise Penny, Emma Rosenblum, Rebecca Ruiz, Bree Sposato, Stacia Thiel, and Eric Wolff.